With recent reports of kosher consumers accidentally receiving food from non-kosher establishments, awareness of proper food-delivery procedures has never been more important. Rabbi Yitzchok Hisiger speaks with Rabbi Sholem Fishbane, Kashrus Administrator at the cRc and Executive Director of AKO, about the halachos of chasimos, delivery services, and protecting the integrity of kosher food from restaurant to doorstep. Whether you order through an app or pick up takeout yourself, this episode contains practical guidance every consumer should know.
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Transcription
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let’s Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the cRc of Chicago. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Sholem Yehuda Fishbane, Kashrus Administrator at the cRc of Chicago. Rabbi Fishbane, how are you?
R’ Sholem Fishbane: Baruch Hashem, thanks for having me.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It’s always a pleasure to have you here.
Today we’re here to discuss a very, very important topic, something we’ll call a davar ha’omed al haperek, something of practical relevance now because of various stories that have made it to the news, specifically people who have ordered food from what they thought were kosher establishments and it ended up being non-kosher establishments, whether they confused the name, location, whatever it might have been, unfortunately people ordered treif and it came to their house, they didn’t realize, they ate it, they consumed it, terrible stories. These are stories that rightfully make headlines and draw people’s attention and that’s what we’re here for. We’re here for Kashrus awareness so we’d like to address this topic today and get your input and insight into what people could do to be better informed and know what to do in certain circumstances. So let’s start with what people should know, the aleph beis of receiving food deliveries. If you’re ordering food from an establishment and are there protective measures that should be taken? Give us some guidance.
R’ Sholem Fishbane: So that’s a great point about protective because Chazal made siyagim, they made protective and Chazal were concerned with hachlafa, with switching around and they gave us halachos to protect the integrity of the Kashrus of the food and I think you’re 100 percent right, these are terrible stories and for every one we hear there’s a few that we don’t hear about. And really it starts and stops with the halachos of chosamos, of seals, of protecting the food that you when you get it and this goes for whether it’s not just the delivery services that you’re referring to, even if you order straight up from a kosher restaurant but the person they’re sending with, the halacha is if he’s not a shomer Shabbos, whether even if he’s not a goy, but even if he’s a Yid but he’s not a shomer Shabbos, he loses ne’emanus, you need to have a seal before you’re allowed to eat it. That’s the halacha, it’s very clear.
If you go to a store and the entire store’s not under hashgacha, maybe one part is, this part is, that part is, and you buy something off the shelf, the halacha is it needs a chasimabefore you’re allowed to take it out. You go at work where there’s a public refrigerator, you can’t just leave your stuff there, there’s a halacha.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It’s a great example. You send out the office secretary who’s not a shomer Shabbos to pick up something, right away there’s a halacha about this.
R’ Sholem Fishbane: There’s situations all of these are scenarios over and over and as you said…
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And to clarify before you go further, this is a meforash halacha in Shulchan Aruch, right?
R’ Sholem Fishbane: Meforash halacha in Shulchan Aruch. This is not a minhag, it’s not a new found custom. It’s not a new found and that’s exactly the point of Kashrus awareness is we’re so used to, baruch Hashem, Klal Yisrael’s growing and we’re eating and everything’s kosher, but whoa, whoa, whoa, Chazal knew what they were talking about when they said these are the halachos.
So exactly I think today we’ll go through some of the very practical halachos and ways to make sure and that’s the halacha you’re allowed to eat beforehand. It’s funny, I saw somewhere where in places where there’s kosher restaurants, there are people that are not even Jewish that will davka order kosher food because if it comes in right, it comes in sealed. Why? Because they know that and there’s been studies on this, 30 percent of the Uber drivers or the drivers are noshing on the fries as they come in. Right.
So they like their food protected as well. So this is a real thing. So it’s important to understand that these halachos and therefore let’s start with how many chosamos, how many seals do you need? So it’s actually a machlokes Rishonim of what are the reasons. Is it because you go with a more expensive item like Rashi says where you need two chosamos or you go it’s more de’oraisa de’rabbanan which is the Rambam and that’s how the Shulchan Aruch paskens de’oraisa versus…
The d’oraisas therefore would be fish without skin, meat, if you’re in the techeiles business, you know, that would be need two chasimos, d’rabbanan‘s like bread and cheese and pizza and cake. These things would need one chasima. In Shulchan Aruch it talks about what about non-mevushal wine, which be’etzem is a d’oraisa but the Taz says today it’s it’s switched over to d’rabbanan. These are various things, but let’s go with how Shulchan Aruch calls it, you know, d’oraisa versus d’rabbanan, needing two versus one.
Okay. So so what qualifies as a siman, right? So what qualifies as a siman is it it takes significant effort to duplicate it and it’s difficult to open the package without breaking or tearing the closure, the tape, the packaging. It looks like it’s like it’s broken. So for example, I went to the store and I bought this potato salad, okay? The potato salad as you see, this is d’rabbanan, okay? And it had a nice CRC tape around it and I wanted to see what would happen if I tried to open it, and as you can see I ate it and it was very good, and I tried to see if I could open without breaking it, and look on the bottom.
So you can see right away how it was, so the tape is still there but you see that somebody did something to it. It got squeezed, something’s off, something’s off. So the driver or whoever it is that might also want to will say, “Okay, you know, I’m not going to bother with this.” This is what Chazalhad in mind. It’s very…
so let’s let’s talk about some of these things. There could be zip ties, there could be staples, you can staple a thing where you can take… this is, this is a one valid chasima. Here’s the, here’s a receipt, okay, of of the guy’s name and what I ordered and all of that, and what they’ll do in a kosher restaurant is they’ll they’ll staple it on.
So that’s one chasima, right? And then what the what the mashgiach will tend to do is you’ll see there’ll be tape, they’ll put tape, that would be a second chasima. Right. So that’s a very good thing. Or they’ll or they’ll just do one with with the bill inside.
That would be another way of doing it. Another way is you can do an atypical knot, obviously kosher tape, Hebrew writing. Sometimes we’ll be run out of tape so we can write on a piece of paper, we can put a piece of regular masking tape, and we’ll write our name in Hebrew, our names across it, so that if you if you try to open it, it will it will go through. Right.
Holograms. You know, there is a concept called a simanmuvhak. A siman muvhak is like to, even though it’s one, but be’etzem like it’s halachically like two seals. So for example, you know, if you go buy a cryovac pack of chicken from the shlachthouse.
If you look at it, there’s really just one one covering, even though it says kosher in two different places. That’s called a siman muvhak, because most people that are delivering don’t have cryovac machines on their belt to redo that. That’s a siman muvhak. Pre-printed tape with kosher tape in it, that’s voiding.
In other words, if you peel it off, it will like rip. That would be also siman muvhak. So here, I brought two pizza boxes. Typical pizza box, right? It needs for sure one chasima.
So if it just has the the company name on it without anything on it, that’s not a chasima. Right. You can’t accept that necessarily. If it has something like this, look at this.
So easy, so easy to open. The way it’s supposed to come is, you can see the tape is wrapped around once. For me to, for someone to try to open it, they would ruin the they would ruin the box, exactly. Now there are many times you’ll find a product, all it will have is the company name on top of it.
Lechiora, this doesn’t mean anything because, you know, anyone could open it, you know, same over here, you know, Miriam’s cookies, you know, this this doesn’t do much. Now the proper way therefore to to do, let’s say you’re buying something like a meat sandwich, it needs like a crisscross. You need to have, this is considered two, that’s considered a double chasima. A double chasima.
So these are the many many examples of how how these things come out and and really it’s it’s critical for us to teach our children, for the schools to teach the students, what qualifies as a chasima, what doesn’t qualify, and therefore there’s no such thing as, “Oh, I only have to worry about it like when I order something on online,” but it’s anytime you go shopping, let’s educate the consumers of what’s considered a good chasima, what’s not, and which products need two and which products need one.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Right. So we mentioned two chasimos, let’s say meat, poultry, fish, things like that would need two chasimos. What are some of the items that would need one chasima? Would it be baked goods?
R’ Sholem Fishbane: Baked goods, yeah, anything from a bakery. bread or anything like that, anything with cheese, which is, you know, d’rabbonon, milk, you know, I don’t know if you order something from a Dunkin’ Donuts, the kosher one versus the non-kosher, and it’s a coffee, you know, that would be one chosimah or a Starbucks or, you know, that type of thing. Almost everything that doesn’t have in it meat, fish, poultry, and those types of things, d’Oraisas, then that would need one chosimah.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: What happens in a scenario where someone does their due diligence, they order from a place that they know is certified, it comes, the order comes, they look at the bag, they look at the package and they see there’s something off, either it’s missing the seal or the seal seems tampered? What do they do? Is there any way to salvage the food at that point?
R’ Sholem Fishbane: So that’s a great question, and we get this all the time where someone will call our office and say, I’m downtown, I ordered from one of the establishments and it didn’t come with a… you know, I want to tell you something interesting.
I asked the kosher restaurants, why don’t you make it a policy every single time that anyone comes for a takeout food, it has to be chosum automatically? Right. They said, ’cause they get upset with us. Most people that walk in want to make sure we have enough ketchup packets and forks and knives. Don’t seal it over.
I need to see what you put in there. Was it the right order? Oh, that’s a very interesting point. Very interesting point. So therefore we don’t do it, and you know, unless we know for sure that it’s…
you know, we try, but when there’s pressure at a restaurant, lunch hour, forget it. Oh, forget it. Sure. So what do…
so we get this call all the time. So there is a concept inhalacha called tviyas ayin. So tviyas ayin means that if a ne’eman kashrus can tell you, I can give a shvua this is… that that food is kosher, that is acceptable.
So we do this, you know, the guys downtown, he’s starving, there’s a convention, three-day convention, he finally got something kosher. We’ll have him take a picture of the food and or maybe even a livestream to the mashgiach in the restaurant who will look around and say, I can identify that is exactly what we sent out. Aha. That’s called tviyas ayin.
And tviyas ayin works across the board. Even in your own home. You go out and there’s someone working in your home, you know, in the kitchen or in the home that’s not Jewish or not shomer Shabbos, that’s the halachos basar she-nisalammin ha-ayin. So if you have a tviyas ayin on the food, that works as well.
But that would be the primary way to get it to fix up something that came in that didn’t have proper chosimos. R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Would you say that a classic case of tviyasayin for a homeowner who’s not a kashrus expert, doesn’t necessarily know how the food is prepared is perhaps, I’m just asking as a suggestion, if someone always orders from the same place and they know the way the food is usually presented and now they got the same order that they usually order but it didn’t have the seal? Is that enough of a tviyas ayinbecause they know what it usually looks like?
R’ Sholem Fishbane: Yeah, the tviyas ayin can be on both sides of the aisle. It could be if you are, you know, fries are fries, and that’s easier. Or even a…
you can make the argument that a pie of pizza kind of will look… but if it’s a certain knish, a meat knish that you like getting, and the way it’s done, I recognize this from this the way they grill it, the way they… yeah, that would be tviyasayin as well. Obviously, as we said, let’s educate ourselves in chosimos that we don’t have to come onto what-ifs, but of course there are ways to salvage if something doesn’t work the way it’s supposed to.
But again, we… I think it would go without saying, we would advise someone in any scenario if they have a kashrusprofessional they could consult, a rov, they should always do so if they can to be sure. Right. And if I could make a suggestion or a plea, as I said earlier, the schools should have some sort of education.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Education, right. Of what’s called a chosimah so that everyone, no matter where they are, they could be in the most metropolitan frum area versus vacationing in who knows where, it’s the same halachos and therefore they should be educated. So we thank you for the education that you brought us and to the public, and continue to have hatzlacha in all you do. Thank you.