CAN You Rely On a K?
Why do some Pepsi products have a K, some a Kof-K, and some no hechsher at all? Can you drink them?
Rabbi Alexander Charlop, Rav Hamachshir for Pepsi, takes us behind the scenes to explain the surprising answers—including how Pepsi’s secret formula stays secret while remaining kosher.
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Transcription
Hello everyone and welcome back to Let’s Talk Kashruspresented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the CRC of Chicago. Today I am honored to be joined by Rabbi Alexander Charlop, the Rov of Zichron Chaim in Cleveland and the Rav Hamachshir on Pepsi products. Thank you Rabbi Charlop for being here. Pleasure.
Yasher koach. It’s a zchus we’ve been trying to get you here for a while so we finally made it happen, Baruch Hashem. Now it’s interesting, you are a rov in Cleveland, but you are involved in kashrus unrelated to your rabbinical duties. This is something that as I would want to hear you speak about, this is actually a position as the Rav Hamachshir on Pepsi that you yarshened, you inherited from your father who inherited it from his father.
So this is something that’s been in the Charlop family for years. Just take us down that road of history how that developed. Okay so my grandfather came to America in 1920 be’erech. He came from Yerushalayim.
In around 1930 or so he started to realize that in America with food being made commercially, you really needed to have kashrus commercially. He was one of the founders of the OU kashrus department. That’s your zeida. Yes.
Rabbi Yechiel Michel Charlop. Then he went on his own, he went away from it. He actually, I believe, was the one that got them Heinz, which was like the first big commercial hashgacha that was gotten. And then he went away from the OU, he went on his own.
He gave the hashgacha I believe since 1934 on Pepsi. Now there are a number of questions that come up and maybe we’ll get into them. How do you give hashgacha on Pepsi if Pepsi tries to maintain a secret? We’ll get to that. But and he developed, and he had a relationship with them until he was nifter in 1974.
My father took over 1974 and gave the hashgacha till 2014. I worked with him for a number of years beforehand, but I took over the hashgacha since 2014. Now the Charlop family, are you related to the famous Rabbi Yaakov Moshe Charlop, is that same mishpacha? Yes, Rabbi Chiel Michel was a ben bechor of Rabbi Yaakov Moshe. Oh really? Wow.
Okay. So mishpacha meyuchases. He was a rov in the Bronx and yeah. Very interesting.
So it is a unique thing that this has carried over from generation to generation. It’s besides for fulfilling your duties as a Rav Hamachshir, you’re literally carrying on the legacy of your zeida and now your father which makes it extra special. How would you describe the yeoman’s task of giving the hashgacha on Pepsi and what are some of the challenges that you encounter? Okay, so the fact that they’re so large really makes the hashgacha much easier. 99 percent of our work is very boring.
Because they have systems in place. Good hashgachas have good systems. The OU developed many systems that many of us mimic or take part, add, subtract, and they work very well with systems. So for example, just as a mashal, if you’re giving hashgacha on a local restaurant that might only be doing $75,000 of sales a year, the owner of that restaurant could be short on oil and he could go out to a store and get oil which is a major sakana maybe he’ll get oil that’s not kosher.
At a Pepsi plant where they’re producing Pepsi, there’s nobody in that building that has the ability to order anything for Pepsi. He can put in a request and most of it is not even by his request. He’s just given the task to actually produce it. There’s the team that does procurement, there’s a team that’s involved in regulatory, and the way Pepsi is set up now is that part of regulatory’s jobs, part of what they’re doing is making sure that it is compliant with kosher.
In fact… You mean that’s actually included in their responsibility? Correct. Just as they have allergen compliance and FDA compliance, all these different compliance, one of the compliance that they need to check before they run any product, because right now everything they run, we’ll get into detail of certain ones that are a little trickier, but everyone that they run, anything that’s in a Pepsi concentrate facility is kosher right now. You could have 700 ingredients, every one of them is kosher.
How many such Pepsi producing facilities are there around the United States? Okay, so now… This is the part that makes it much easier again from a Kashrus vantage point. I don’t know if I’m allowed to say the exact number, but I can tell you that a Pepsi concentrate has something called global procurement. They are concerned about always being able to deal with any issue that could come up.
So if the Strait of Hormuz is closed, they have another option. If COVID hit, they have another option. And therefore they’re really biktzei haaretz, they’re at totally different ends of the world. But they have a handful, literally five different plants that are supplying different parts.
Most of it is supplied from one or two concentrate facilities, but there are five concentrate facilities that are part of… around the world? Around the world. That provide to the smaller Pepsi facilities, would you say, or…? They are providing all the concentrate of anything in America for sure. Anything in America is provided by these concentrate facilities.
Are all Pepsi beverages under your supervision? So all the what is called the cold fill, all the regular carbonated drinks, the concentrate for all of them is kosher. Now some of them are a little trickier than others, meaning about ten fifteen years ago they started introducing certain energy drinks such as Kickstart. Now Kickstart, all the concentrate… which is a Mountain Dew brand? Mountain Dew Kickstart, yes, thank you.
Mountain Dew Kickstart is getting the concentrate from a concentrate facility. The concentrate facility is totally kosher. Anything coming out of the concentrate facility is kosher. But they have also direct drop.
Meaning what does that mean in layman’s terms? They have certain ingredients that are directly sent to the bottler or through a DC, a distribution center, which the distribution center sends it to many bottlers. When it comes to Kickstart, so Kickstart has a grape juice component. It advertises ten percent juice. Almost always when they’re advertising ten percent fruit juice, what they’re referring to is white grape juice.
White grape juice is the cheapest, sweetest juice that they use. That is being sent directly to the bottler. Now they do order kosher grape juice, but grape juice is a very sensitive product. You can’t just rely on the bottler getting it and assume that it’s okay.
And therefore we strongly recommend we would not take any responsibility and would say that you should only drink Mountain Dew Kickstart if the bottler has hashgacha. Okay, and how would you know that? Okay, so now the bottlers are at their own discretion can decide if or if not they will have hashgacha and they can decide which hashgacha. Many of them are independently owned and they can decide which hashgacha. For example, the New York area bottler is under Kaf-K.
There are another couple bottlers as well that are under Kaf-K. They, because of marketing, they put a Kaf-K on the cans, on the bottle. There are many other bottlers that also have hashgacha will only put a K because it gets too complicated, they don’t want to order a million cans with their emblem. So collectively all of them will just order with a K.
You might have one or two might be under the Star-K, you might have one or two under the CRC, you might have one or two Northeast Vaad of Philadelphia… but the K is representing all of them? And K is for any kosher. As of now, I can’t always guarantee it, as of now they always run by us who they want to use for a specific bottler and they will only use somebody that we say is reliable. Okay, got it.
As of today, as of this recording, right? This conversation, yes. And based on that, if I would see a Kickstart with a K… you’re comfortable because there’s hashgacha on the bottling facility. Correct.
So it’s interesting, you jumped right into that topic which is one of the big Pepsi questions is why certain bottles of Pepsi products have a Kaf-K, some have a K, some don’t have hashgacha on it at all. So you addressed why it may have a Kaf-K or a K because those supervising agencies are giving the hashgacha on the local bottling facility in that region. But why is there sometimes no hashgacha on a Pepsi product even though really it sounds like it would be kosher? So many of the bottlers… you are not allowed to put a hashgacha on your final product unless that final product was bottled with somebody taking responsibility that it is kosher.
We will not take responsibility on a bottler if we never walked into that bottler and if we don’t have ongoing visits into a bottler, we’re not going to take the responsibility for the bottler. In truth, I wouldn’t be concerned about the bottler without taking responsibility because they only… But that mere system, that mere system, that fear is enough to make you comfortable to drink from any Pepsi bottling facility in the United States? Yes, because for them to deviate, they would be paying so much money not to use Pepsi. Right, right.
And it will be caught. And what about besides for the concentrate, aren’t there other ingredients that they’re using that may be of concern? So right now, at a bottler, on a regular drink, let’s say Pepsi, Diet Pepsi, it’s not Sierra Mist anymore, I forgot what all the different flavors that they have, the Mug flavors, the regular Mountain Dew flavors, including all their orange blast and berry blast and all the different names that they make are just different flavors in the concentrate. All that is kosher. What goes in at the bottler level is very simple.
There’s sweetener that goes in, which Pesach presents a major issue, but during the year sweetener whether it’s corn syrup or sugar is what would be called a group one. It’s very simple.Carbonation, water, very simple. They will have sent through the DCs, they’ll send citric acid, sometimes another salt like a potassium benzoate, which are also all group ones.
Furthermore, we are on top of all the distribution centers. There are a few distribution centers in America. We regularly visit them to make sure everything that Pepsi says that they are sending to the final product is kosher. Right.
And how about the fact that it’s an independent facility, you’re not worried about shared equipment or using it for other runs and things like that? Very good question. So the assumption of most kashrus organizations in America is that that is not an issue because it’s what is called a cold fill plant. Okay. So everything there is filled cold.
You will have something that they’ll just have to dissolve a concentrate but even that is not getting hot. There’s no klirishon. Got it. So even in a scenario where they would use it, it would still be cold.
Correct. Even if they used it for something else that wasn’t kosher? And you’re saying it’s probably not even likely that they’re doing that. Right. The only thing that they use it for other than Pepsi is a number of the bottlers might bottle another national brand such as Dr. Pepper.
Okay. But it doesn’t challenge the integrity of the kashrus. Got it. And especially because nothing is hot and nothing is kavush, nothing is left in a tank for 24 hours overnight or anything like that.
Got it. And Baruch Hashem, you build up a rapport. I remember the first time we went, they’re very concerned about other people coming in just from proprietary purposes, but the first time the Badatz gives in Eretz Yisrael, and so we’re dealing with the ingredients all the time together. And I remember we went to a specific supplier, and Rabbi Binder from the Badatz and I went down to the supplier.
Rabbi Binder is brilliant and really understands the chemistry of ingredients very well. But we had to sign confidentiality agreement beforehand. By the time we left, they were nervous that he could repeat… that he’s that brilliant.
Aha, very interesting. They weren’t worried about me. That’s interesting. But I’m happy you brought up Rabbi Binder, you talk about Eretz Yisrael because that was going to be my next question.
Basically we’re comfortable with Pepsi in the United States, you’re pretty much good to go with basically everything. Except for the Kickstart which needs either a K or Kof-K. Right, which needs a specific hashgacha. What’s the story with Pepsi products outside the United States? Eretz Yisrael is great.
And that’s under the Badatz? That’s under the Badatz, yes. Okay. Is it by the way, is Pepsi in Eretz Yisrael owned by the same Pepsi corporation? It’s owned by the same corporation with a lot of overlap. Okay.
We’re on many emails together. Aha, interesting. So Eretz Yisrael you’re okay. How about if someone goes to Europe or South America or wherever it might be? Okay, so at the beginning of the conversation we spoke about what is called global procurement, which is Pepsi’s ability to supply globally.
Okay. And if this continent gets knocked off, you have this continent and so on and so forth. Global procurement provides for many many countries, including all of Europe, including Russia, including the US, Canada, Mexico, all of Central and South America and Southeast Asia. Not included is one country in South America, Venezuela.
Venezuela has its own concentrate facility. I don’t know anything about what goes on in Venezuela. Okay. Not included is China, North Korea.
India and I would be concerned probably around the number of the countries near India, whether it be Pakistan, Sri Lanka. I’m not sure whether those countries are covered by the India supplier or by global procurement. Got it. So what does that mean now that you’ve told us that, what does that mean regarding someone who’s traveling, sees a Pepsi product, can he buy it, can he use it? If you’re desperate, if it’s not a third world type of place, in all likelihood you’re okay because the Pepsi itself should certainly be made cold fill.
There’s no hot fill in that so you wouldn’t really run into a major problem anyway. I just am hesitant to make a blanket statement. Right, right. Any final thoughts on this fascinating topic? If you’re health conscious and you don’t want to drink Pepsi, drink Bubly.
Is that also Pepsi? Owned by Pepsi, okay. And that’s under your supervision as well? Most of the Bubly. All Bublyconcentrate is. Again, Bubly plants, the Bubly bottlers go on the same rule as Pepsi.
Right, same rule as we discussed prior. Rabbi Harlap, thank you for being here. It’s a tremendous zchus again, we wanted to speak to you for a while. Thank you for bringing us into the world of Pepsi and we wish you continued hatzlacha in your avodas hakodesh in carrying on the avoda that your father fulfilled so admirably, that your grandfather pioneered so many years ago in the last century and continued hatzlacha in all your avoda.