Why is there so much more Beis Yosef meat available today? What does “glatt” really mean? And are all glatt and Beis Yosef standards the same? Rabbi Zvi Fishbane, Rosh HaShochtim of the cRc, takes us inside the world of shechita, tracing the evolution of kosher meat standards and explaining what consumers should know.
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Transcription
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let’s Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with the CRC of Chicago. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Zvi Fishbane, long-time Rosh Hashochtim at the CRC of Chicago. Rabbi Fishbane, welcome.
R’ Zvi Fishbane: Thank you, Shalom.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: I’ve been privileged in the past to talk to your son, Reb Sholem.
R’ Zvi Fishbane: Yes, Baruch Hashem, we’re very proud.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And today we are zocheh to have you after all this time.
So you’ve been the Rosh Hashochtim at the CRC of Chicago. You’ve basically seen everything in the field of shchita.
R’ Zvi Fishbane: I joined the world of shchita more than fifty years ago. And Baruch Hashem, I’ve seen a transition of the shchita standards from fifty years ago from the old time until today, and I’ve seen the transition to be on a higher and going on a higher, higher madreiga, then always looking for more hiddurim and more availability on a higher standard of kashrus, Baruch Hashem.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Very often when we hear people reminisce about the old times, they like to say how great things were back then. In the field of kashrus and specifically shchita, what do you see as the primary difference, or at least maybe even take us down memory lane, walk through what it was like five decades ago and then gradually to where we are today?
R’ Zvi Fishbane: Well, it’s just very simple is that today, Baruch Hashem, the Olam HaTorah and even the Olam HaChassidus is much more learned and much more broaderthan it was for the people who were living in America before the war. And because they are such on a higher and they’re more learned with such a higher learning background, they understand more and they are demanding more. Once you’re demanding more, so therefore the industry has to keep up with the demands.
I’ll give you a very simple example is that when there was a controversy of nikur or a controversy of chalav Yisrael, what happened? People would rather abstain from eating than get into shailos and look for heterim. So mimaila that itself was a reason that they upgraded the standards to supply the demands of the tzibur, Baruch Hashem. And that’s when I started the shchita world over fifty years ago, the idea of Glatt Kosherwas just very didn’t wasn’t the norm. But like I say, the demand became bigger, so they had to find a higher standard of Glatt Kosher.
But this is where the problem comes in. Was there enough to supply the tzibur for everything that they were asking for? So then already you have to look on the other side to find more Glatt Kosher. And that’s where the standard already became a little lenient to find more Glatt Kosher. For example, there is there was a when we started out, real Glatt Kosher was 100% Glatt Kosher, there was nothing more or less, you had to have Glatt Kosher if there was a request for it.
Today, everything has to be Glatt Kosher and so they use the term today as being commercial glatt. It’s not the real glatt, it’s just called commercial glatt. Now you can stretch that to whatever it means. There is a sefer called Mateh Asher that people use to say up to three—I’ll explain what that is—three ririn, which is basically three sirchos, whatever it may be.
We can still call that Glatt Kosher. So it became lenient. All of a sudden, the olam woke up to that and said, hey, this is not what we want. We want the real thing or else we’re just not interested in eating your product.
We don’t need it. We’d rather have what we want. So we start asking for Bais Yosef. Bais Yosef is supposed to mean that the Bais Yosef said that we don’t take anything, so therefore the Bais Yosef is supposed to be without anything, nothing on it, no rir, no sircha, nothing, you didn’t play around with the lungs, you didn’t look at it.
Okay, all of a sudden the demand for this Bais Yosef standard became higher. So we got to supply the Klal Yisrael with BaisYosef. Right. Once again, we had to find heterim.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So let’s start at first base for listeners who are watching—listeners are listening, watchers who are watching—who are not shochtim, they don’t know anything about shchita, they’re relying on wonderful hashgacha. like the CRC and others for their, for their meat. What, what does glatt kosher mean in layman’s terms?
R’ Zvi Fishbane: Let’s, let’s go back and discuss the origin of what glatt kosher means. There’s basically, without going into all the background of all the lomdus in the Gemara, basically we’re talking about a machlokes of Rashi and Tosafos.
It goes like this. If you find a something in the on the lung, it’s called a sircha. Sircha is somewhat of a thin membrane that develops and it’ll develop on the lung. So the question is, why as Chazal say, we don’t take this.
If it’s in a certain position on the lung, we cannot accept this as kosher. So it’s a machlokes Rashi and Tosafos as to why we don’t accept it. Rashi says because anything you find on the lung, it’s indicative, it shows that there must be a hole inside the lung, and we know that a nekev mashehu is going to passul the, is one of the treifos, it’s in the nekev mashehu in the reiya, in the lung, it’s going to passul. Tosafos is cholek on Rashi and says if you find something on the lung, it’s not necessarily there’s a hole in the lung, it means that there is a, it’s going to eventually, since the lung is breathing and it’s expanding and it’s detracting, so because of the movement of the lung, it’s going to eventually make a hole, sof lei l’nakev.
That’s why certain sirchos you would find on the lung, which would be 100 percent muttar because it’s not part of the expansion of the lung. So that’s already extended halacha in Yoreh Deah. But this machlokes of Rashi and Tosafos, how does, how does it affect, is that affect everything you find on the lung or not? So there was a time there was called the BeisYosef and the Rema were talking about a certain procedure that they saw a adhesion, a sircha, an adhesion on the lung, and they would determine if this is what Chazal meant. Meaning like this: they would take this sircha in their hands and they would rub it and expand it, and if it dissolved, oh, it dissolved, so it’s going to eventually dissolve anyway, and we’re going to call it a sircha bas yoma and it’s anyways going to dissolve anyway, so mi-mah nafshach according to Rashimeans it never made a, it was never a nekev there in the first place because something that’s going to dissolve on its own, it’s not, it’s indicative there’s nothing really there, and according to Tosafos it’s going to dissolve anyway, it’s, once you make this miyuch u-mishmush on this reiya, so then we’re going to, it’s not going to be sof lei l’iparek.
So this idea of miyuch u-mishmush, it became a machlokesbetween the Beis Yosef and the Rema. The Beis Yosef says, no, we can’t accept such a bedika. And the, and that’s where the idea of Beis Yosef means it has to be completely clean without follow up with any type of bedika. The Rema says, no, our minhag in Klal Yisrael to do miyuch u-mishmush.
That was fine and dandy, that was beautiful until about approximately 150 years ago, whatever it may be, that they discovered a different way of being bodek the lung. It’s called klipa. Klipa means that they took the sircha and with an expert way they can peel the sircha, the adhesion off the lung and check it: is there a hole underneath it or is there not? So that became the norm of how to check. The idea is, if you want to put it in layman’s term, the miyuch u-mishmushprocess was a bedika on the sircha, is this what Chazalwanted, were referring to.
And the bedika of klipa is not a bedika on the sircha but it’s a bedika on in the lung, what the lung is once you peel it off. Once you peel it off, we’re checking the lung. So that’s the major difference of klipa and miyuch u-mishmush and it makes a whole difference in what kind of sircha, what’s a sircha, how it, but that’s, that would be the difference. The problem really is that hayos that it’s a machlokes Rashi and Tosafos what the origin of the sircha is, so this idea of klipa is only according to Rashi because what are you doing you’re checking for the hole in the lung but according to Tosafos that says it’s soifa liporek you’re not accomplishing anything with this kleipa.
You don’t know what’s going eventually what’s going to happen. And the Simla Chadasha who is the of course the posek acharon in Hilchos Shechita and Bedika says since it’s a machlokes Rishonim we have to be machmir like both. So here we got a problem over here that everybody’s doing kleipaand that became the minhag in Klal Yisrael but it’s not according to all the shitos so it doesn’t fit in according to Tosafos mostly according to Tosafos because of this reason because of soifa liporek. So everyone’s that’s where glattkosher comes in.
Glatt kosher comes in and says listen we’re going to we’re going to not have anything on the lung so you don’t have a problem with Rashi and Tosafos and everybody will be happy. That’s good if the glatt kosher is nothing on the lung. But if there’s something a little bit on the lung and you’re finding a heter is this a sircha this is what the Beis Yosef meant and go through that whole procedure of thought how does it fit in according to Rabbeinu Tam? That’s how it that’s where the major problem comes in. So what became a glatt kosher standard lowered itself to commercial glatt which you find something there and maybe we can take it maybe we can’t.
People woke up to that. That’s not what we’re looking for. We want nothing on the lung. Okay we’ll give you Beis Yosef.
The demand for Beis Yosef was overwhelming.
All of a sudden the market is flooded with Beis Yosef. What’s going on here? I had the opportunity to speak to one of the rabbonim machshirim and he explained to me not every BeisYosef is the way I explained it. Vos heist? What’s the makorBeis Yosef? It’s from the acheinu haSephardim they have their masorah. And according to their masorah you can do certain things and you can accept certain things and certain sirchosyou could accept it according to their masorah.
I’m not familiar with it but this is the way it was explained to me. So according to their masorah this is called Beis Yosef. Oh we could go with their masorah and call things Beis Yosef. I looked at him I said that’s what you’re doing? We’re talking about yungeleit we’re talking about people who are choreidlidvar Hashem they don’t want anything and you’re giving you’re saying I’m only giving it to a masorah.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It’s like a chumra habah lidei kulabecause not only that if you would try and sell kitniyos on Pesach and not put on it Sephardim only try that it doesn’t work.
R’ Zvi Fishbane: So mimmiela that’s what’s happening basically right now. I’m not saying all the machshirim have this lenient standard but if you find a influx of Beis Yosef meat in the market and on the shelf you have to be choshesh for it.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Choshesh for what? What practically?
R’ Zvi Fishbane: That they’re not using the standard that you want but rather a standard let’s say that this acheinuhaSephardim have a masorah for and they would take certain things off the lung.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: So are you better off not buying BeisYosef or is that what you’re insinuating?
R’ Zvi Fishbane: I’m not saying what better off what to do. I’m telling you everyone has to go and determine what where the meat is coming from what they want have be educated and follow accordingly. I’m not here to.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: But if people who are not shochtimthey’re not experts at shechita they don’t know the minutiae of or they don’t know the details so what should someone do? If they want to be machmir betachlis hahiddur they want to get the?
R’ Zvi Fishbane: There is a standard in the slaughterhouse today it’s called Shaish Beis Yosef Shaish. So the sellers are developing what Beis Yosef is this is for the hamon am but the Shaish means Shaish is the highest standard Beis Yosef highest standard and there is a they do mark that but the question how much can you get? Shaish you can’t play around with. Once you’re calling something Shaish it means it’s complete. It’s perfect.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It’s perfect. So the question is if you’re able to get that upon your request or not depending on the. And obviously you might have to pay the price for it because if well I’m not going yeah it’s gonna cost perhaps more depending on what the market could supply. Or else this community they keep it for themselves.
Let’s say you have a certain community that has their own shechita they’re rest assured they’re going to take care of their own community before although like you say they can get a better price. So you mentioned acheinu hasfaradim. When you’re referring to our Sephardic brethren with regard to BeisYosef and standards of shechita, are you talking about all Sephardim, are you talking about certain segments of Sephardim, if you could clarify that?
R’ Zvi Fishbane: I’m, well let’s put it this way, I know that Hacham Rabi Ovadia was very makpid in what you call BeisYosef. This is what we were saying was shaish Beis Yosef.
He wouldn’t settle for anything less and that’s the way he instructed his talmidim and his tzibur. But there are other mesoras. I’m not familiar, I didn’t go personally, I didn’t interview other people, but this is what we’re told in the industry, that there are machshirim from acheinu hasfaradimthat said in that’s the they have a different mesora and this is what they’re transmitting and telling our machshirim who are copying that standard and giving using that as a standard for Beis Yosef. So it’s not necessarily by everyone.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It’s only by certain ones. Now, to clarify also, tell me if I’m right about categorizing like this. Our whole conversation here is about a mehadrin level. We’re talking about those who desire the highest level of purity in shechita.
So we shouldn’t mislead people. We’re talking about people who want Beis Yosef because it’s a higher level. And within Beis Yosef what you’re saying is because there became such a high demand for Beis Yosef, so whatever the providers of meat have found ways for the meat to be considered Beis Yosef. So we’re talking about within that realm of mehadrin, what is mehadrin, what may be mehadrin min hamehadrin and things of that sort, if you could elaborate on that? Exactly.
R’ Zvi Fishbane: I just want to explain before the shechitastandards have definitely been improved. The quality, the standard of the shochet himself that should be on a ben Torah-dik level at least. I know by the Chassidish communities they have to meet their standards as being a representative of their community and a representative of Torah and what they stand for. 100%.
It’s on a but to say that it’s not acceptable, chas veshalom, everything is beautiful according to but I’m just bringing out this nekuda because the demand is so great as compared to years before, so this demand has brought them to want to supply the tzibur and in that nekuda the hiddur demand has lessened the standard that people may want to accept. But it’s 100% there’s no problem, it’s 100% beautiful kosher shechitaon all the basically in all the machshirim today and it’s a kavod for the tzibur that the machshirim are well aware of the to keep everything on a higher standard with higher chumrasand aderaba yochlu anavim veyisbau. Right. So, you know, we like to provide a takeaway for those who listen and watch Kashrus Awareness, let’s talk Kashrus.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: And so I’d like to distill everything that you said into perhaps a practical takeaway. If someone wants the highest level of shechita today, so a two-part question: should they look specifically for Beis Yosef and if they should, how do they determine that it’s the highest level of Beis Yosef? What would you say?
R’ Zvi Fishbane: I would say basically learn through the sugya. No, basically I would…
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: No, on a serious note, people are not necessarily able to learn through the sugya.
Those who learn Chullin in Daf Yomi may have a little more knowledge of what we’re talking about, but on a serious note, if someone really wants the highest level, what should they look for?
R’ Zvi Fishbane: So basically what I’m saying is since the standards differ from one community from one shlachtoisfrom one hechsher to the other, it would be a responsibility of the rav of a community to be able to advise his tziburaccordingly.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: Aha. So you go to your rav and you say to your rav I want the highest level of shechita, he’ll tell you which specific shechita, which store, which shlachtois and so on. Yes, I would think that should be the derech, yes.
Rabbi Fishbane, thank you for being here.
R’ Zvi Fishbane: It’s been my honor.
R’ Yitzchok Hisiger: It’s a zechus to be able to sit with you and on behalf of all those who have benefited from your dedication and devotion to the world of shechita for half a century, we say thank you, thank you for enhancing the world of kashrus as you have and for all your wonderful avodas hakodesh, thank you so much.
{Matzav.com}